Reductio Ad Absurdum
Recent weeks have show me how people will go to the ridiculous to prove the stupidity of their own arguments. I’ll give you a few examples of recent events.
One a former friend recently during a debate on gun safety decided since he was losing the argument he tried to compare his choice to use illegal drugs and getting arrested for his choice to my rape. The discussion started with a comparison of Huston and Chicago as far as rape, murder and other violent crime. I demonstrated how guns in the hands of law-abiding citizens lowers crime. (We will comeback to this again because it’s worth the conversation.)
He dislikes people owning guns at all. The reason he was arrested on felony charges of possession and hence -HE- can’t own guns so no one can. So he of course took the other side of this discussion.
My point was this.
“The United States is 3rd in Murders throughout the World. But if you remove Chicago, Detroit, Washington DC, New York and New Orleans, the United States is at the Bottom for Murders.
These 5 Cities also have the toughest Gun Control Laws in the United States.
The same applies to rape and other violent crimes. By removing those 5 cities the USA is in last place for the most of any violent crimes. Fewest rapes, fewest robberies, fewest murders…. Gee and here I thought guns made us LESS safe? Silly anti-gun people logic and statistics are for smart people.”
He countered with.
“Again, it’s a cultural problem. Blades, explosives, and poisoning would do the job if there were no guns. But guns do make killing simpler- and at greater range.”
I countered his point.
“Cultural problem would suggest it exists within all of america. That is simply not true. Compare similar areas with similar populations and the only difference is how easy it is to conceal and carry. Crime rates in conceal carry states are 1/4th those on non-conceal carry states. Why? Simple beacause the bad guy has to wonder is my victim armed.”
“When I write “cultural problem” I refer to the localized culture of decaying inner-city areas- exactly the ones that skew the national stats as you noted in your other post.”
Here are some of our discussion and where it went to absurdum after this. I said
“Miami and huston have similar inner cities to chicago and yet far less crime. Only difference is gun ownership and gun laws. The number of minorities, average household incomes, many things are very much the same. And yet we have much higher violent crime rates in states with tough gun laws. The evidence is plan to read and even the U/N. who wants to disarm the world reports the same. When the bad guy has to wonder is that person armed. Is 20 bucks, a quick rape worth my life? Is breaking in that home worth my life? Yeah they think twice and crimes go down.
Why is Huston more upscale? Education? Business freindly? All the things the corrupt Chicago is not. 6.68 million in the 2012 census and very large 2012/2013 growth rates exceeding 20%. The point remains even the UN found “The same pattern appears when comparisons of violence to gun ownership are made within nations. Indeed, “data on firearms ownership by constabulary area in England,” like data from the United States, show “a negative correlation,” that is, “where firearms are most dense violent crime rates are lowest, and where guns are least dense violent crime rates are highest.”
True gun laws are a knee jerk reaction to crime. When in reality if the criminal had to worry the home was armed or the person he wanted to rape was armed or the person he wanted to mug was armed they would reconsider their career choices. Look at NY they published the homes with guns and guess what crime among those homes known to have guns FELL not rose. While crimes among homes not having guns increased. Again facts aren’t on your side. Let Chicago arm it’s law abiding citizens and actually defend themselves and crime will drop.”
Now as a side note since this discussion in 2013 (July) Illinois made it legal to conceal carry. From Jan-July Chicago was on pace to shatter it’s previous 2012 record crime rates. With the introduction of legal conceal carry the remaining months were so low that Chicago crime rates fell so drastically that Chicago hadn’t seen a year with so little crime in more than forty years. The ONLY difference between Jan-July and August-December? Legal conceal carry. Not one extra cop, not one change in education, not a single change in demographics, no change in number of poor, number of minorities. THE ONLY CHANGE LEGAL CONCEAL CARRY. So I am proven right months and months later. But I digress.
When faced with the facts he countered with:
“If they get serious about the mental health angle, you might want to wipe that “ghost dancer” stuff off the web…..”
So it went to this after discovering his inability to own legal guns because of his past choices and mistakes to attacking my struggles after a brutal rape?:
“You see it is normal to suffer depression and cutting when you’ve had my past. I know you made mistakes and paid by jail or parole or whatever. That is not the same as me I am the victim to a brutal and violent crime commited against me by others. It is 100% normal to feel down or depressed and to act out. However violence against others is another thing. I would defend myself for sure if needed but wouldn’t go looking for trouble nor go out of my way to harm another. It’s against my moral being. But I will not give up my guns nor my permits. Why? Because I will never be a victim again without a fight. Been conceal carrying since I was 18 legally and zero instances of violence.
He replied with this:
“Btw, I don’t consider marijuana possession to be a “mistake”. I believe it will become legal eventually, perhaps even in my fucked-up Republican dominated state of Indiana. How would you like it if I said you made the mistake of getting raped?”
So because he cant own a gun because he choose to break the law and had a felony possession conviction no one else should be able to either. He wouldn’t OWN his choices and tried to say being raped was a mistake. Reductio Ad Adsurdum at work.
My reply was calm as I could muster at the time.
“See a mistake is a choice you make. You choose to be in possession of a drug known to be illegal (stupidly illegal maybe but illegal none the same) I did not make a choice to be raped nor beaten near to death. The crimes are completely dissimilar. One is a victim to brutality while you were a victim to poor judgment.
Honestly NO one asks to be raped but you have to ask to buy or have friends who know you want it. One is a crime with no real victim and both parties the seller and the user enjoying the transaction while the other a crime where one person is never left the same because they “didn’t enjoy it and didn’t ask for it”.
But nice try though. I guess that is more screwy logic to compare another dissimilar thing and try and prove a point.
By the way all I knew was you had done something that landed you in legal trouble and on probation. No idea what it was but I give the benefit of any doubt and say it was a mistake not an intentional breaking of a law no matter how dumb (you believe) that law is. /shrug Sorry if it upset you it was an illustration not a insult.”
See how that got stupid in a effort to prove a point of view? Sometimes I wonder just why the simple art of debate has been lost. So many have no clue how to stay on target and debate with facts. They use their personal situations and beliefs to argue pure emotion. Stupidity like because I can’t own a gun because I personally screwed up no one should be able to. Things like my “mistake” is like saying you made the mistake of being raped. I mean sheer stupidity.
The second example was a discussion about life styles and who we love.
I am bi-sexual and make no excuses. I don’t hide it. I won’t apologize for it. And to prove a point about “allowing” any gay lifestyle I was told “Since you were born that way why not accept Pedophiles they were born that way.”
Really you make it that simple and resort to absurdity that quickly? Let’s compare the two. One being a practicing bi-sexual my relationships are between adults capable of deciding if they wish to have sex or not and with whom. Compare that to a pedophile who has sex with a child unable to choose if they want to have sex. The child is harmed mentally and physically forever by the sexual encounter(s). Where as my partners are not harmed in anyway.
Oh this person would say they are harmed spiritually as am I. Oh well that would be your personal belief since what is spiritually acceptable and moral is personal. You can’t dictate your morals onto someone else. Nice try again. He would support his beliefs by quoting some book that I don’t believe in as if that is factual.
See facts are only that which can be proven. Since a holy belief is something un-provable it can’t be used as factual for discussion. So he reverts to comparing it to bestiality and “all sorts of depravity”. Wow again really more absurdity? So we compare consenting adults to sex with an animal you can’t ask if it consented. Nor does the animal posses the ability to express it’s feelings on the matter.
In some cases the animal is harmed in the encounter. Would you call that love? The animal is incapable of feeling such in that sexual manner.
A number of recent events have taught me most people are incapable of rational debate on factual information. Your personal belief in this or that doesn’t make it factual, moral, or right. It makes it right for you. Your inability to do x or y doesn’t mean no one should be able to do x or y.
Sorry just felt like a rant today.
~Michelle Styles – January 26, 2014